Chatting with a 4th Generation Member of “The Way” 2x2s

Phylicia Masonheimer:

And welcome back to Verity podcast. I’m Phylicia Masonheimer, your host, and we are in the middle of our series on false teaching and how to discern when we see false teaching in the church today. I’m really excited for this week’s episode because you get to experience an interview with my friend, Angelica Rasper, who was a member of the two by two church, also known as the way or the truth. In her testimony, Jill is going to share with you what it feels like to grow up in an environment that is marked by legalism or rules based religion and how she walked through that environment to the other side of understanding the true gospel. This is part of our new freedom from legalism course that launches March 2025. We’re so excited to launch this new course and I know that it will be a blessing to so many of you. So you get a sneak peek of it with this interview but the full course has seven modules and multiple interviews walking through the process of identifying legalism, healing from legalism, and eventually sharing your own story so that other people can be set free. That’s exactly what I hope for you as you listen to Angelica’s testimony.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Hi, friends, and welcome to the last interview in our freedom from legalism course. I’m so excited to welcome to the studio today my friend, Angelica Rasper, who’s gonna be sharing her powerful testimony today about leaving a legalistic environment, how to heal from those environments, and kind of what the reconstruction process looks like. Gel and I became friends through my sister and then have been in a a theology group together and go to church together, and she’s just been a huge blessing in my life. And I think you’re really going to enjoy hearing her story and that it may encourage you in your own walk with God and finding freedom from legalism. So, Jill, why don’t you first share with us what the group is that you were in and kind of what some of their beliefs are.

 

Angelica Rasper:

Okay. So it’s a little bit complicated because I didn’t know what group I was in until, about five years ago. So, it’s a home based group with no name. So that made it really hard once we left to know what group I had been in. I knew that it was worldwide, and, I knew there were a lot of people in it. But without a name, it was hard to track down what this group was. So we are called the two by twos by outsiders. Inside the group, we would call each other the friends, the truth, and the way.

Okay. So that’s kinda like how we talked about it with each other. The claim was that we were started by Jesus. So because we were started by Jesus, we didn’t need a name.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Got it.

 

Angelica Rasper:

Because it was the one true way to worship God. Mhmm. And so we didn’t need a name and we didn’t need a building because Jesus didn’t have a name for his group or a building. So we met in homes. We had meetings mon or Wednesday night and Sunday morning and sometimes Sunday afternoon and sometimes Thursday night, like, a lot of meetings. Okay. And, the big big tenant of the group is that, they are the two by twos. So the two by twos, why we’re called the two by twos.

 

Angelica Rasper:

So they send workers out two by two in pairs around the world to preach the gospel. Okay. The gospel for them is the way. So these terms are complicated because it’s not the gospel that you would, you know, that you would normally say.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Like a different gospel than maybe you would hear if you to a Baptist church. Right.

 

Angelica Rasper:

Okay. So when they say the gospel, they’re talking about their church. They’re talking about their ministry of sending out ministers two by two. Okay. Yes. So yeah. So these ministers are homeless and, sell everything they have to be in the ministry. They’re celibate, and they live in the friends’ homes.

 

Angelica Rasper:

Okay. So that is, the main thing about them, that makes them the two two by twos.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Got it. That’s where that name comes from.

 

Angelica Rasper:

That’s where the name comes from. So they believe that faith and salvation can only be obtained by listening to the preaching of the ministers.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Okay. So you have to be hearing directly from a two by two preacher.

 

Angelica Rasper:

Right.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

To hear the truth.

 

Angelica Rasper:

From a worker. Yep. So if you don’t, you know, if you’re a part of another church, you are not saved because you’re not hearing.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Got it.

 

Angelica Rasper:

You’re not hearing the, truth from the workers. So, let’s see. They don’t have any written doctrine. So that makes it interesting too because, there’s no written doctrine. There’s no written rules. There’s no, evidence of them, you know, documented. So that makes rules vary per region. That makes doctrine vary per region.

 

Angelica Rasper:

So everyone in this group doesn’t believe the same thing.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Really? Yeah.

 

Angelica Rasper:

Which is so fascinating. But there are rules that are the same throughout the entire world. So I will say, I don’t know, know, like, overseas how much, you know, this all overlaps, but I will say, like, in The United States, this is all pretty much accurate. They only read King James version Bible, which I think, you know, that’s a kind of legalistic tenet is we only read one Bible. Mhmm. They only, sing hymns out of a hymn book called Hymns Old and New. Okay. And that book is written by workers.

 

Angelica Rasper:

So these hymns are written by workers. Some of them though are actually, hymns you would know. They have just been tweaked by workers. So words like grace will be taken out. 

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Really? Really? So there’s no amazing grace? No. No. No. No. No.

 

Angelica Rasper:

So, yeah, it’s interesting because we all thought these were just our songs, you know? And then you leave the group and you go to a big church, which are, you know, very forbidden in the group, and all of a sudden, they’re singing your hymns.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Oh my goodness. I thought my goodness.

 

Angelica Rasper:

I thought we were gonna be very jolting to, you know, be recognize that this wasn’t written by a worker. Wow. Yeah. So the group, they don’t have any church buildings except, for convention grounds. So convention grounds are, used one time a year for four days. Okay. And, people from all over the state come to these grounds, and they have, bunks. They have RV hookup sites.

 

Angelica Rasper:

They have, full commercial kitchens and dining halls and, you know, everything you need for, like, a church camp, basically. Very elaborate, usually. And these are owned by wealthy people within the two by two, so conventions are. So it’s very interesting that we didn’t have buildings, yet we had these massive buildings that we used for four days a year.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Got it. Got it.

 

Angelica Rasper:

So other rules, our meeting attendance is very mandatory. So you need to call if you’re not gonna be there, and there has to be a good reason why.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Okay.

 

Angelica Rasper:

Women are, like many legalistic, you know, religions. You can’t wear pants. You have to wear skirts and dresses. The interesting thing about them is that they don’t have to be long skirts and dresses. They can be short, you know, short skirts and short dresses and tight and not necessarily modest, but they just need to be skirts and dresses. Got it.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

That’s interesting. So that’d be a little bit of a difference from, like, more of, like, the independent fundamental baptist Oh, sure. Which would be, like, long, loose.

 

Angelica Rasper:

Okay. Usually. So if you’re very devout, you definitely are gonna be dressing more on the, like, long, you know, but not everybody does that. Okay. And you’re still following the rules even if it’s short and tight. So, women can’t have makeup or jewelry or piercings. Men can’t have any of that either or tattoos. You’re not allowed to study the Bible, or the theology outside of King James version bible and what the workers teach.

 

Angelica Rasper:

So you can’t read outside Christian material.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Okay.

 

Angelica Rasper:

Listen to people like you.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

So would this be that You’re not supposed to.

 

Angelica Rasper:

You’re not supposed to.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Not supposed to. So would this be warned about in the meetings, like, not to listen or just as it came up? 

 

Angelica Rasper:

Probably in a vague way. Everything is, very anal like, analogies are very big and just kinda skirting skirting around topics, but people within would know what the talking about.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Got it.

 

Angelica Rasper:

So yes. Yes and no. You know? It would be things like this would be mentioned, but in a very In a vague hush-hush. Yes. Kind of way.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Yes.

 

Angelica Rasper:

Okay. Okay. There’s no TV allowed, but you can have phones and laptops and tablets and all of that. Just no TVs in your house. You can’t celebrate Christian holidays or, you know, anything like Christmas, Easter. Interesting. Not yeah. Because those are worldly Christian I see.

 

Angelica Rasper:

Celebrations.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Okay.

 

Angelica Rasper:

And definitely no visiting other churches. Okay. Very bad. So rules that varied, there are a few things that I’ve just noticed that vary per region is, like, how much you can participate after divorce. Sometimes that’s, hard and fast, like, you’re out. You know?

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

If you’re divorced.

 

Angelica Rasper:

Sometimes Okay. You’re just kicked out.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

So both parties would be out if they’re divorced?

 

Angelica Rasper:

It depends. It depends on the worker. Or you just yep. Some and, like, the same goes for remarriage. The same goes for marrying an outsider, dating, marrying an outsider. Okay. And baptism. So requirements for baptism, that would totally vary based on who’s

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

 

Okay.

Angelica Rasper:

You know, who’s there.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

And would that be the how you were baptized, or is that, like, what you had to do in order to.

 

Angelica Rasper:

Yeah. What you had to do?

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

I guess.

 

Angelica Rasper:

Okay. Yeah. So, the group overall has about a 25 to 200,000 people worldwide, they’re guessing. Since there’s no official, you know, documents, you can’t say for sure.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Yeah.

 

Angelica Rasper:

But, that’s kind of the estimated number. In the last five years, that number has been cut about in half. So Wow. Previously, it was a lot more. But, five five ish years ago now, I’m sorry if I’m getting dates wrong, but four or five years ago, a overseer, which is a leader of workers, was found in a hotel room, and he he had died in the hotel room. And, he was in a hotel room, so that was suspicious because they were supposed to be staying in members in friends’ houses.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Okay.

 

Angelica Rasper:

And so, it was discovered that he frequented hotel rooms with women, and that kind of opened floodgates for people that had been sexually abused by him, CSA victims. Okay. And thousands upon thousands of people have come forward in the last four or five years.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Wow. So And is that regarding sexual abuse cases from.

 

Angelica Rasper:

Yes.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Multiple overseers Yes.

 

Angelica Rasper:

And members of the trial. There’s over a thousand people, perpetrators now that have been named within the two by twos that—

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Oh, my word.

 

Angelica Rasper:

Yeah. So FBI is investigating and that’s kind of what got our group into the spotlight. Oh, investigating, and that’s kind of what got our group into the spotlight in the last, you know

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Yeah.

 

Angelica Rasper:

Four or five years.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Because there’s a documentary now about it.

 

Angelica Rasper:

Right? Okay. Okay.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Yeah. Wow. Well, thank you for sharing all that. And I know that we have members of the community who are doing this course who are also like you, were members of the two by twos, but also for those who who are watching this, who aren’t in that context, I think it’s helpful to hear how you described some of the behaviors that happen in other legalistic contexts. Like, don’t listen to any outside churches or outside content, only listen to our teaching, only listen to the authority that has, you know, been put over you, and then even down to, like, you’re still following the rules if your skirt is, like, super short and tight, then you’re within the rules, but you’re, like, bending them as far as you can. I think that’s such a marker of legalistic context because we used to kind of joke there was a joke that I heard, among friends who were in IFB churches. They said you can tell what the pastor’s struggle is in legalistic IFB. I don’t think they all are that way.

We could tell what the pastor’s personal struggle was by whether he preached on low cut shirts or high skirts. Of course. So you’d see a trend in some of these churches where the women wear really long skirts Right. So they but their shirts are really low or the opposite. And it’s like, it just creates that culture where it’s like how far can I push this Right? Instead of like how holy.

 

Angelica Rasper:

Yes.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Can I be? So you are no longer in the two by twos. No. So can you share with us a little of, like, your testimony of how you came out?

 

Angelica Rasper:

Yeah. So I do wanna say I’m fourth generation. Wow. So that’s a big fourth generation on both sides of my family. Wow. That’s a long time to be involved in something. Yeah. Oh my goodness.

So, yeah, I was 17 years old, very much in it. I will say I was very much in it and that I didn’t consider leaving it. But at the same time, I definitely lived a double life. My parents were, thank goodness, not strict. So I was able to wear the skirt and dress to meetings and then wear jeans to school. Okay. You know? And, they even let us start going to a, youth group when we were in high school, which was huge. You know? That’s very considerable.

So Wow. They were, yeah. They they bent the rules, and I think that was a huge blessing to us that they did. Yeah. I do think it was confusing as well, and it Mhmm. You know, led to a lot of, like, what is good and what is bad and what do we believe.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Right. Yeah.

 

Angelica Rasper:

You know, just, everything kind of feeling like we were living a devil life. Okay. But I was 17 years old and I asked to be baptized. Okay. And, being baptized, that’s usually at a convention. So we were at Carsonville Convention here in Michigan. And, I asked to be baptized. They said I could. And I went and found a long skirt because I didn’t have one with me, and that was a requirement.

 

Angelica Rasper:

I didn’t know that, but they said you need to find a long skirt. So got a long skirt and, went to bed that night in my parents’ camper. Woke up the next morning to knock on the door of my parent my grandparents’ camper, and there were workers at the door. So I, you know, put my skirt on, put my hair back because that was required, and Mhmm. Went outside and sat in a row with them. And I think I was very thankful my dad walked up just as we were sitting down, or else it would’ve just been me and them. He I mean, I think it was God’s God stepping in to have him be there as well. So he came up.

He sat down with us, and they said that I could not be baptized. They said, you have too much makeup in your cupboards at home, you have a TV in your room, and you ski too much. I was on the ski team, and I missed a few gospel meetings for ski practice.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Okay. So How dare you, darling?

 

Angelica Rasper:

I was not regretful of that, but so how did they know this information? Well, so they stayed with us in our houses. I see. So that’s, you know, there’s yeah. There was obviously some snooping going on. We always close the door to, our bedrooms, and my mom was very protective. She didn’t this was before all of the CSA stuff. But whenever they came over, they slept in the basement. I left my room in the basement and slept upstairs.

Smart. And Yeah. You know, she didn’t know. So, they told me that, you know, I couldn’t be baptized, and I was devastated. I felt that they were right. I honestly I went back in the camper, and I was just crying, and I thought they’re right. You know? I I shouldn’t be baptized. It wasn’t for the reasons they said.

I didn’t feel like those were legitimate reasons even at the time, but I did feel like I don’t know why I’m being baptized. I don’t have any reason to be baptized. And, you know, so it’s easy to, rationalize in my head that I shouldn’t be. Okay. So after that, we went to the meeting the meetings that day, and it was, devastating. I remember sitting through the testimonies, which are just, people talking about, you know, what their whatever they want to talk about that day. And one little boy stood up and he said, I just was baptized today and was just saying how thankful he was to be baptized. And he was probably eight or nine, and I ran out of the convention shed crying.

Not to be dramatic, but it felt like a slap in the face to be like, he’s good enough and I’m not. You know? Yeah. That was the last meeting I ever went to. So Wow. We left there. We went home. I could tell things had changed with my parents, and there was a lot of hush talking. And what I remember most after that is my dad walking around with his Bible everywhere.

He so when you’re in when we were in it at least, we only read our Bibles, like, Saturday night to get k. Words to say for Sunday morning. We didn’t read them regularly. So him walking around with his Bible everywhere was very shocking

Phylicia Masonheimer:

It was like, what is this what does he do? Wow.

 

Angelica Rasper:

And he was trying to figure out if what they were saying was true. Wow. And he got very, very angry. Wow. Very, very quick. You know? He read his whole bible, at that time, and he kept going to meetings. And he told he kept and he, his testimony changed over time as he was talking because he realized they’re not this isn’t right, you know. Mhmm.

 

Angelica Rasper:

So not long after, workers came to our house and they said, you need to stop. You need to stop going.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

They told you to stop?

 

Angelica Rasper:

They told me I wasn’t going. My mom had kept us at home. She kept my siblings and our home, but they said to my dad, you need to stop going. I think he was just creating waves. Yeah. And they weren’t in the meetings when he was creating waves, but obviously, that got back to them.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Wow. You know what’s so beautiful to me about that is that with his King James version Bible, like the Lord still spoke to him and gave him this discernment and gave him this wisdom to be able to stand up to something that was not true.

 

Angelica Rasper:

Mhmm.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

And I think sometimes when you’re in a context, like, where it’s KJV only and that’s one of the rules, we can forget that, like, God can still speak through his word Yes. And that he did that for your dad.

 

Angelica Rasper:

Right.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

So that’s just incredible, like, I just think that’s so beautiful.

 

Angelica Rasper:

Yeah. I do too and after reading that Bible for many years, you know, to finally to get something else out of it. Yeah.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

To hear it in a new light even while it’s being abused. Right. It’s amazing. Right. Yeah. So your dad is told he can’t come. Right. So now the whole family.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Now we’re all out.

 

Angelica Rasper:

So, yeah. We were all out at that point, and, for me, it was just relief. It was just just relief that we didn’t have to do this anymore. And, for my parents, it was really hard. And I didn’t know that at the time, but they lost everything. You know? They lost their whole their whole community. Yeah. I still had school.

I still had, you know, ski team. I I had these groups. I had my youth group that we had been kind of illegally going to. But my parents didn’t have anything. So that was really, really hard for them. And would your grandparents still have been in? Yes. Okay. Yes.

And it was hard for them too. They did stay in. They had a my dad’s parents had a very hard time with it because the head worker, he was the overseer in Michigan at the time, he stayed with them a lot, and he was the one who made the call that we couldn’t go anymore.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Really?

 

Angelica Rasper:

Okay. So that was really hard for them because Like a betrayal. Right. He stayed with them. You know, they kinda pick families they stay with more than others and, they felt really close to him. So that was difficult. So for six months, we did meetings in our house. Okay.

So that’s how deep this, like, legalism, I don’t know, aspect of it goes is that we believe that was still the only way. We believed that doing these, like, meetings in our home was still the only way to be close to God. Right. You know? And, we still were very much we didn’t know any different about, Christianity, but we still were very much in the mindset that, like, we were trying to be good enough. And we were trying to, Jesus is not, God for two by two. So he’s Okay. He’s somebody that you’re aspiring to be like. And so we are still, you know, just working to, like, try to be good enough, just like Jesus and be sinless.

And, it was really, really scary to think about going to another church. Yeah. So, senior Sunday came when which is when they give Bibles to all of the seniors that are going to this youth group that we had been a part of. And I asked my parents. I said, would you guys wanna could we go? You know? Can we go to this, senior Sunday? And they were very, very against it. They were you know, I just remember them being like, no way. But Sunday rolled around and I decided I was gonna go. I was 18, you know.

And I’m like, I’m gonna go get my Bible. They’re giving me a new Bible. I’m gonna go get it.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

You’re you’re a rebellious dude who’s going to go get that bible.

 

Angelica Rasper:

And I walked out into the kitchen and my mom had jeans on. She was dressed and she had jeans on and she’s like, we’re coming. Wow. And her wearing jeans was, I mean, I just I still like can picture her so vividly being in the kitchen with her jeans. Wow.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Oh my goodness. That shows such a shift that she’s, you know, saying like this is a breaking point. Like Right. A shift is happening. Right. If I’m gonna go and see you get in the Bible, I’m going all the way.

 

Angelica Rasper:

I’m not wearing a skirt while I do it. So, yeah, we we all went to church and they kept going to that church. We went to church every Sunday. I mean, they did not miss a Sunday.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Wow. Wow. Yeah. We have a little friend joining us for the second part of this interview. Okay, Joe. So they start going every Sunday.

 

Angelica Rasper:

Yep. Mhmm.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

To church. And then how does that how does this transition into your adulthood? Right.

 

Angelica Rasper:

So then I left for college. And I feel like I didn’t fully, I didn’t fully recognize at that point how hurt I was.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Mhmm.

 

Angelica Rasper:

But I was really, really hurt, and I still felt not good enough. I still felt, you know, like I was working.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Mhmm.

 

Angelica Rasper:

And so I kind of started rebelling a bit doing the whole, like, parties and guys and just kind of trying to find my way, I guess.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Mhmm.

 

Angelica Rasper:

Thankfully, I met my husband really soon after that, which, you know, is is a blessing, but also I wish we would have met in different circumstances. Sure. But we met right as soon as we got to college. And, soon after that, we started going to a, a home, like, bible study small group Okay. Which was extremely triggering for me.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

That is so interesting. Like, so for so many Christians, it’d be like, a small group. Okay. Whatever. Like, but for you, it is such a specific trigger. And I think that for those who are listening, just to remember, like, there will be specific things because of your experience with legalism that you might be surprised that you’re triggered by and that you get to, you know like, did you have safe people that you could explain that to, like, Dane Yes. At the time, like, you have safe people that you could explain that to, like Dane Yes. At the time, like, why this setting was so triggering.

 

Angelica Rasper:

I don’t think at the time I even, was able to recognize that. I think it it took me a while to recognize, recognize, how scary that was.

Thankfully, it was a really, really good group of bible believing Christians. And, a year after that, I got baptized. And so that felt monumental. Right before I got baptized, I talked to our pastor’s wife. And I said we were on a walk and I said, I really wanna be baptized, but what do I have to do? And she just stopped walking and she looked at me and she said, do you believe that Jesus died for you? And I said, yeah. And she said, that’s all you have to do.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Let’s just say that’s so powerful.

 

Angelica Rasper:

It was so so freeing that I, you know, I didn’t have to be sinless. I didn’t have to, like, clean everything up. And that’s what I felt like I had had to do. You know? I felt like you have to be perfect to be baptized, and I knew I wasn’t. You know? And, so I got baptized, and I remember coming out of the water and feeling like I’m a new person, but I’m also a sinner, and that’s that’s okay. Yeah. You know, to be living in God’s grace every single day. Yeah.

That’s beautiful. Yeah.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

It’s amazing too because, like, baptism represents the washing of regeneration. So, like, if you were perfect, you literally wouldn’t even need to be baptized saved and baptized. Right? Like, it’s like, why would you be baptized? Because it represents Christ washing away.

 

Angelica Rasper:

Right.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Your sins and and giving you a new life in Christ, which is something you walk out the rest of your life. Right. So it’s so beautiful to hear, like, just the difference between how the gospel was presented in the first part of your life, and how the gospel actually is in the second.

 

Angelica Rasper:

Yes.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Which is amazing. Yep. So okay. I know you could share so much more about, like, your personal story. I wanted to ask you specifically when you kinda talked a little about this, but, like, when you’re in that environment, like, how did you realize that something was off or something was wrong? Like, at points in your childhood or your teen years, when you were sitting in meetings, did you ever have, like, that I just don’t agree with that or I don’t believe that and have, like, a wrestling of any kind?

 

Angelica Rasper:

Yeah. I think, so a big thing was just how sad it was. There wasn’t any hope or joy, and they always talked about how there was, but there wasn’t.

And you could tell that I mean, anyone listening to a meeting can tell that. Okay. People cry all the time, in their testimonies every Sunday, you know, every Wednesday, every convention. People are just crying because they’re not good enough. You know, every, a very common way to end your testimony is I just wanna do better in the coming days.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Wow.

 

Angelica Rasper:

That’s a very that’s kinda what we all said at the end. I just wanna do better. And I think even as a child and, you know, adolescent, I realized, like, this is not a happy place. And, you know, you read about the joy that God brings, and I did not feel that.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Yeah. Yeah. Wow. That I think is so true for all legalistic environments. Mhmm. You know? I went I used to go to rallies with some friends of mine who were IFB. Mhmm. Fundamental Baptist.

I had never seen, like a rally where, like, the pastor, like, screams at you and yells and gets, like, red and fake. I had never seen that because I grew up in environments where pastors would just, like, teach. Right. And I I was first of all, I was shocked, but then I saw, like, the response of the people around me was, like, they loved it. They were super excited. But it also I just remember sitting there wondering, like, why are you so angry? Like, why are you so angry? And why are these teens excited that you’re angry? Right. Right. But it’s because it was there’s so such a strong culture around it.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

All their friends are there, all their community that it’s almost like they couldn’t see. You you just are almost, like, forced to accept that that was true and normal because everyone else is. No one else seems to think anything’s wrong. And so the little Pentecostal coming into the, like, Baptist environment, I was just, like, stunned. This is crazy. Of course, if it had been the reverse, there would have been that would have been crazy too. So so there’s some red flags, and you mentioned too just, like, the whole baptism episode of of how them saying, like, these things have disqualified you being that shift for you. Is there anything you’d say to someone who’s like, I’m in it, whether they’re in the two by twos or they were or a different group, like, things that they could look for that would be red flags in general?

 

Angelica Rasper:

I think if, I think a common thing, said by two by twos is I’m not worthy. And, I think if you’re feeling that way, you know, if you’re feeling just, like, constantly, like, I’m not good enough. I am not. Mhmm. And I think that’s really complicated because we aren’t worthy, you know, of God’s love, but yet he calls us our children. Yeah. You know, and I think, that part gets left out a lot of the time that we are loved by him and we are his children. Yeah.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

The end of the story.

 

Angelica Rasper:

Yes. And just how much joy there is there in that relationship and how that’s not a relationship of fear. Mhmm. That’s, you know, that’s a relationship based out of love for God. And there I mean, that’s complicated too because there is fear of God. Right. But not fear of, not following the rules and not being good enough. Yeah.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

I heard one scholar say that the fear of the lord is being in awe of his affection for us. And that to me was like, oh, that makes sense. Because then when you look to him, you’re not thinking like, oh, God hates me. God’s angry at me. God’s judging me. It’s like, I am overwhelmed by his greatness, but I’m overwhelmed because I know he loves me.

 

Angelica Rasper:

Right.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Versus I’m overwhelmed with fear that he could leave and look at me.

 

Angelica Rasper:

Right.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

You know? Like, it’s a difference of, like, him looking at you with affection versus him looking at you with judgment and, like, wanting to cringe and hide and cover with siblings. Like, that’s a thing versus, like, I know he’s a father who loves me. Right. And I and yeah. That’s just really a hard a hard shift, I think.

 

Angelica Rasper:

Yeah.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

So you kind of came out of this you’re in this healthy environment, church environment. You had to kinda deconstruct or sift apart what was true from what was false. Can you kinda describe how you did that? How did you deconstruct that and then reconstruct to where you are today?

 

Angelica Rasper:

I feel like it took time, and it took time to even recognize what I needed to do. I didn’t realize how much hurt was there, and it took until, we actually rented a house from a member of the two by twos. Oh. My grandpa is one of my grand late grandpa’s best friends, and he’s so sweet. And we loved him. We love him so much. But he was in the two by twos. And we were actually surrounded on both sides by two by two people when we lived in this house for a few years.

 

Angelica Rasper:

And I think that was kind of the jolting moment for me of I feel really angry. Mhmm. And I loved them, but I also felt a lot of anger. And I remember Dane telling me, you, he said it’s okay to be angry, but you need to be angry at the right right things. Mhmm. And, I was feeling angry at these people for falling for terrible theology. And, you know, that sounds bad, but that’s what I was feeling. And and he told me there’s a spiritual realm that is at work here, and that is what you need to be angry at. Yeah. And that was that was a huge shift in my brain, that what you need to be angry at. Yeah. And that was that was a huge shift in my brain that, you know, these people are being deceived and it’s not them I I’m angry at.

 

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Yeah. That is so good. Because I think a lot of people I was just talking to a woman yesterday who who said, like, I’m out. I’m on the other side, but my whole family is still back there and I feel lost and hopeless and angry because because, like, what do I do? Like, how do I get them I want them out. Like, I wanna Moses them out. Right. Right. Yeah.

Deliver them. Yes. But I think it’s so important to remember, like, if God got you out, he can get them out. Yes. And, like, he delivered you. He will deliver them. Mhmm. Like, but if like Dane said, like, it’s a spiritual battle first, and so prayer is spiritual war.

And I think we forget like, we feel like if I just tell them the thing tell them the truth, they’ll get it Mhmm. And they’ll come out. And it’s like I mean, what would you say when you were, like, 15 if someone had been, like, gel, the truth is the gospel is this. Like, would you have listened to what they were saying No. No. No. At that point?

 

Angelica Rasper:

No. And we were I had really good friends that were, you know, Christians, and we prayed to I remember praying with them in their kitchen, and I thought, wow. I don’t we don’t pray like this at home. You know? This is this is something to, like, stand around praying, but yet I I didn’t think that was the right way. Yeah. You know? Because it was so deeply engrossed in me that we were the only way.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Right. Yeah. And and that’s so often what’s being told to people in these environments. Any kind of legalism is like, well, we’re the only way. I can’t listen to any other way.

 

Angelica Rasper:

Right.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Because that would threaten my safety. Mhmm. And then especially at the risk of losing your community, this happens to a lot of people leaving Jehovah’s Witness.

 

Angelica Rasper:

Right.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

The Mormon theology too is like they leave, they lose everything. Yes. Everybody and in some cases even their money Mhmm. Is tied up with the church and that’s it’s just really really devastating. So when you’re when you’re rebuilding, so as you left, you guys started going to church as a family. You had the small group in college Mhmm. That was really helping. Was there something that helped you the most in rebuilding after the experience?

 

Angelica Rasper:

I think once I so once we were in that cabin and surrounded by x or by current two by twos, studying theology, that was what I started diving into because I realized, do I even know what I believe now? Do I even, am I believing what I believe now in the same way that I did back then? It kinda blindly following Mhmm. Traditional Christian beliefs, you know. And so I started diving into theology books and studying hard topics like the trinity, you know, that we were never taught. And, trying to figure out for myself what I actually believed, and asking hard questions, you know. Having hard conversations, like, with Dane, with my husband about, I don’t know. I don’t know what I feel about this. And, you know, it’s hard to say that about some topics. It’s hard to say, I don’t know if I trust God with this.

Yeah. But I feel like that’s so important to get to that place.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Yeah. So not being afraid to wrestle with topics and and read, like, press into something that maybe scares you a little bit.

 

Angelica Rasper:

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And I think the other part was just surrounding myself with Christian community that could really you know, that was super supportive.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Yeah. Yeah. Were you able to tell those people, like, I’m I’m struggling with this. I’m not sure I believe this yet.

 

Angelica Rasper:

Yeah. Yep. Ask asking questions, oh, for sure. And that’s a huge difference. You know, when you’re in a community with Christians and you’re able to be honest about that kind of stuff, it feels, I mean, night and day compared to Yeah. To what we were in before where you aren’t allowed to ask any questions.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Right. And I know for some people coming out of legalism because you’re told you can’t think for yourself. You must be told what to think, and it has to be this. It can actually be really easy to swing from one framework to another. Right. And this often happens with conservative and progressive legalism where people will come out of super fundamentalist environments and they’ll actually swing all the way over and adopt an entirely new framework just, you know, hook, line, and sinker because this person sounds like they’re saying the right things, so I’m just gonna adopt all of that without questioning and sifting. And I think that’s the most time consuming part is like, okay what are the core central doctrines of Christianity? And okay. But, you know, I can imagine coming out and looking and going, like, why does this church believe in speaking in tongues and this one believes in, like, Jesus is in the communion? Like, it’s just overwhelming.

 

Angelica Rasper:

It is overwhelming. Yes.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Yeah. So would would you say to someone who is in that situation of, like, sifting, would you say concentrate on the core first, or was there something specifically that you concentrated on when you were in the middle of all that sifting?

 

Angelica Rasper:

I think I concentrated on my relationship with God the most. That, like, personal relationship because I hadn’t had that for, you know, all of my time growing up. Yeah. It was just this complete, like, rules based following, you know. Yeah. And doing things just because I felt like I I had to.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Mhmm.

 

Angelica Rasper:

And so focusing on my relationship with God, you know, I remember so many drives just like sitting and talking to God. Yeah. And feeling so free that I could just talk to God. Yeah. And and being able to do that out of my own love for him and not because I wanted somebody to see me talking to God. Right. Right. Performing for for other people.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Yeah. That’s beautiful.

 

Angelica Rasper:

But yeah. Also and definitely focusing on, on core doctrines and I think you could definitely get caught up. I didn’t because I I, I didn’t think enough about it, I think, when I first got out. But I think that could be very overwhelming to try to figure out all of these, you know, issues that don’t matter as much as Right. The core issues.

 

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Right. Like, if you’re struggling with, like, why are people speaking in tongues, but you still don’t have a personal relationship with God, like, back it up, focus on your relationship with Jesus, like, your prayer life with him, reading the Bible for yourself, and then you’ll get to that point where you can handle talking about those kinds of things. But if that core isn’t strong, then those things are just more confusing over time. So on the other side of this, you know, I’ve known that you had come out of the two by twos from being your friend and I know that you now have shared your story on social media and with other people who are leaving the movement. It’s really nerve wracking to share your own testimony. Yeah. It’s really and so I’m really grateful that you’re here and doing this. It’s really nerve wracking to share your testimony, especially when you know that some people won’t receive it well or if you still have family members in it, and they can feel attacked by, like, what you’re sharing.

I know that can be hard. And I can’t speak to the legalism part, but I can speak to, like, sharing my testimony of leaving pornography. Mhmm. It’s like I felt so much shame over who might see it. Right. And, like, well, what are they gonna think? And finally I had to just feel like the truth is more important than what they think of me. Mhmm. Did you encounter any of that struggle with starting to talk about what happened to you?

 

Angelica Rasper:

Yes. I mean, even to the point where, so, I’ll back up a little bit to when I found out that we were the two by twos. And I stumbled across this memoir by somebody who had been in the group. It’s called Cult of Christ by Elizabeth Coleman, super good memoir. And, she mentioned in the back of the book some Facebook groups. And so this was back when we had first moved to that cabin, being surrounded by two windows. And I was sitting on the bed and I googled x two by two in in Facebook, or I, you know, looked it up in there, and I found a group of x two two by twos. And, there were 600 people in the group.

I hesitated for days to even join the group. Mhmm. Because, you know, it’s a private group, so people can’t see that I joined it. But it was just terrifying to to join an x two by two group.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Yeah. Do you think partially because it, like, put a name to you? Yes.

 

Angelica Rasper:

For sure. Yeah. Yes. For so long, you don’t you don’t have a name.

So having a name felt kinda terrifying. Like, oh, I’m a part of this group. Okay. But also, like, are people gonna be like, are other people in the group that are gonna see me? And are they gonna what are they gonna think? Even though they’re in the x group and probably x’s as well. Mhmm. But I joined that group and seeing other people’s stories made me realize that was the point where I realized, like, wow. I think I have stuff to unpack here. I think I think I have to think about my past a little bit more than I have.

Yeah. That group now has 5,600 members. Yeah.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

So that hearing other people’s testimonies

 

Angelica Rasper:

Right.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Actually showed you where God wanted to heal you. Yes. Which is like the power of the of sharing our testimonies with other people. It’s like I’m not alone Right. In what I’ve gone through.

 

Angelica Rasper:

Right. So I would say, you know, from four years ago when I joined that group or five years ago, I’ve come a long way and, like you said, and just not being afraid of people because I do have I have all of my extended family still in it. I have family that owns convention grounds. You know? Like, we are deep in this and on both sides, you know. I have friends. I have close friends that are in it. And I think my biggest fear in talking about it, you know, whether it’s online or in person, is that I don’t want them to think that I’m bashing them. I don’t want I just don’t want it to come across at all.

Like, I, don’t respect them because I do. And I’ve been there and I know I wasn’t there as an adult. And I think that’s a little bit different. I think if this all hadn’t happened with my baptism, I might still be in it. Mhmm. You know? And I didn’t have to make those hard decisions as an adult with a family. Mhmm. So Wow.

Wow. I feel like that, you know, I respect I respect those people that are still in it, just as I respect any other person and I just really hope that God brings them out too.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

Yeah. Well, Jel, thank you so much for sharing this and sharing your story because there’s something that we we have said and you’ve heard me say it, but I always say, like, on the other side, you set other people free. Because once you’ve gone through it and you are sharing your story, other people have they’re experiencing your story the way you experienced those other people. Yeah. And it gives them a chance to to sit with it and go, oh, like maybe the gospel isn’t this heavy thing that I have to perform for and I have to work for and I have to see see if I’m worthy. Maybe the gospel is actually something that is freedom and goodness.

 

Angelica Rasper:

Thank you.

 

Phylicia Masonheimer:

you so much for joining us today. I appreciate you. Yeah. Thank you so much for joining me for today’s episode and this interview. I hope it was a blessing to you and if so please leave a comment on our YouTube channel or leave a review on iTunes or Spotify. It helps other people find both this episode and this show. And if you would like to join us in our new freedom from from legalism course, we would love to have you as a part of our online community. This takes place in the circle communities app or website.

The app is both android and iphone friendly. Find seven modules walking you through how to discern legalism, how to find freedom from legalism, how to understand what scripture says about the gospel and the Christian life, how to heal from legalism and spiritual abuse when it crosses over with these environments, and then how to share your story. I hope this course is a blessing to you. And if you are like gel, a member, former member of the two by two church and and interested in taking this course, we have a special discount code for you, and we would love to give that to you. You can email Phylicia@phyliciamasonheimer.com, and we can give you that discount code so that you can grab the course at a discount. We want to serve your community as you are navigating, this time of finding a new church home and rebuilding your faith after legalism. Thank you for listening, and I’ll see you next time on Verity podcast.