In this week’s special edition episode, we have the Ask Anything LIVE panel from Verity Conference 2023 featuring Joel Muddamalle, Lisa Whittle, and Phylicia Masonheimer emceed by Johnny Whitcomb. Listen in as they answer questions like
- How do you establish appropriate boundaries?
- What is the best way to train up theologically sound leaders?
And even find out Phylicia’s take on Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce.
Stay up to date for the release of the entire Verity Conference session recordings and listen at your own pace by joining our email community at phyliciamasonheimer.com/newsletter
Special thanks to our sponsors Logos, Compassion, Samaritan’s Purse, Dwell Differently, Crossway, the Old Testament Handbook by CSB Bible, TAG Coffee, and Vilah Bloom.
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Transcription
Phylicia Masonheimer:
In this week’s special edition episode, we have the Ask Anything live panel from Verity conference 2023, featuring Dr. Joel Muddamalle, Lisa Whittle and Phylicia Masonheimer, MC’d by Johnny Whitcomb. You can stay up to date for the release of the entire Verity conference session recordings and listen at your own pace by joining our email community phyliciamasonheimer.com newsletter. Special thanks to our sponsors, Logos, Compassion, Viable Options, Samaritan’s Purse, Dwell Differently, Crossway, The Old Testament Handbook by CSB Bible, TAG Coffee and Vihal Bloom.
Johnny Whitcomb:
All right, guys, we are about to get set for our panel discussion. Lots of good questions came in. Don’t get jealous if they have coffee up here. Promise? No promise. I’m sorry. I would like to invite out Phylicia Masonheimer. Lisa and Joel, you guys can come out, too. Welcome to your living room.
Johnny Whitcomb:
Right?
Phylicia Masonheimer:
My living room.
Johnny Whitcomb:
They know what your living room looks like. They follow you on instagram anywhere you want. Yeah, go ahead. You sit there.
Joel Muddamalle:
You said middle. I don’t know which middle we’re talking about.
Johnny Whitcomb:
You’re this middle chair. Yeah. Or you could sit right between them if you want to.
Joel Muddamalle:
I like here.
Johnny Whitcomb:
Okay.
Joel Muddamalle:
This is a good spot.
Phylicia Masonheimer:
Boys and girls.
Joel Muddamalle:
This feels like a middle school dance. Guys. Just hanging.
Johnny Whitcomb:
We’re just going to hang over here and pop our heads. All right, so this is really fun. I like doing the panel. We’re going to try to start lighthearted. But before we do that, Joel, would you be willing to pray for us? Because this is not too scripted.
Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah.
Johnny Whitcomb:
Because this is not too scripted.
Joel Muddamalle:
No, it’s not at all.
Johnny Whitcomb:
So we really need the grace of God.
Joel Muddamalle:
You bet. Let’s pray. Lord, thank you for your kindness and thank you. I mean, what a beautiful place that we’re in. And we’re reminded just as we walk out of your greatness and your grandeur and your awe. And so we just pray, Lord, that things that we’ve been thinking about, learning, studying, reading, would stir our affections for your son, Jesus. Be with Lisa and Phy, myself and Johnny, as we just respond to some questions. And we pray that your spirit would give us guidance and that we would just consistently be turning back to the scriptures for your wisdom. We trust you. We love you. Amen.
Everyone:
Amen.
Johnny Whitcomb:
Love that. Okay, so to start the panel off light and to get to know you guys a little bit better, we thought it’d be fun to ask some personal favorites for you guys. Favorite dessert. Rapid fire.
Joel Muddamalle:
That’s throwing them for a loop.
Lisa Whittle:
I’m already freezing.
Johnny Whitcomb:
We’re in trouble.
Phylicia Masonheimer:
Well, I will never, ever turn down a chocolate cake. German chocolate, not German chocolate. It’s like the coconut kind of messes with it a little too much. Just like a straight up, like those flourless chocolate cakes that are like all squishy in the middle.
Johnny Whitcomb:
We’re going to get to unpopular opinion.
Lisa Whittle:
Yeah, see, I’m going opposite her already. I love anything coconut, so I would like a coconut cream pie.
Joel Muddamalle:
That’s good. I’m simple. I’m very simple. I love oreos and milk. That’s like a theology snack for me.
Johnny Whitcomb:
Those have snuck up on me this fall. Okay, I like it, a little bit deeper. Now we’re wading into the waters. Can you share a person, podcast or message that has profoundly impacted you and your faith.
Lisa Whittle:
Early on until now, hero of the faith for me is Johnny Erickson. Tata. She’s someone that continues to be profoundly impactful in my life, even from the time I was goodness, probably about 17 years old. She is someone who I could relate to as a very feisty work in progress. She wrote about that even in her autobiography, being just very honestly willful and also just have a lot of that just fieriness in her bones. And that was kind of the young woman that I was as well. Just how she has walked out her faith, even with a disabled body, has just inspired me exponentially to know how you can live that out despite limitations and also just be so alive in the spirit. So she’s someone that has profoundly impacted me.
Lisa Whittle:
Her writing, honestly, which some people don’t know about, they know her from her art or whatever, but her writing impacted me. She also would sing. She is multitalented, so she’s somebody. And then I got to have her on my podcast. It was honestly a bucket list for me. There’s a lot of people that I’ve gotten to interview, but for me, having her on and getting to speak to her, profoundly impactful. I ask every question on the Jesus, every person on the Jesus Over Everything how. One last question. And that is, if you could only say one thing about Jesus, what would it be? And her answer was, it marked me in a way I cannot even express. So you’d have to listen to that episode. We don’t have time to get into it, but it was amazing.
Johnny Whitcomb:
Cliffhanger.
Lisa Whittle:
Cliffhanger.
Johnny Whitcomb:
That’s good. Yeah, that’s good.
Phylicia Masonheimer:
I love that you brought up Johnny, because I’ve been reading through these. There’s these little books called, like, ten girls who changed the world to my eight year old daughter at night. And one of the girls is Johnny, and my daughter had never heard of her before. And so we read the story, Johnny’s story, and then I told her, you know, that Johnny’s still alive. And she was in awe. She was so excited that this hero of hers was alive, and she got to watch some videos of Johnny. And it was just so neat to see. I was inspired by her growing up and to see my daughter get to be inspired by her, too. So I love that you brought her up. For me, it was Charles Stanley. So Charles is. He recently died. He died this spring. He founded In Touch Ministries. And I think whenever I say that, people are kind of like, really, he has just a very simple teaching style. But if you’ve ever watched him preach the way that he preaches, he never says, he never pauses.
Phylicia Masonheimer:
He just teaches scripture straight through, as if completely automatic. He doesn’t look at his notes once. He holds the Bible in one hand, and he teaches it completely straight. Just it pours out of him. And when Josh and I were dating to present day, we have always been equipped and encouraged by his sermons. Everything that he would preach on was exactly what we needed to hear at that moment. And so he influenced both my faith and encouraging me, but he also greatly influenced my teaching style and just really inspired me for what I do today.
Joel Muddamalle:
So, good. I’m going to cheat a little bit and give two, one very well known and a couple that are not known at all. My grandparents, Kim John Khuluri and Jayamani Khaluri, are missionaries in India. And it’s very rare to have an Indian who grew up in the know. That’s not a common kind of deal. And so my grandfather was converted, met Jesus from some british missionaries. There’s a whole thing that happened with Britain and India and the British Raj and all that, but a real, true kindness. And the two most humble people I ever met that raised me, helped raise me as a child.
Joel Muddamalle:
And significantly, my earliest memories are of waking up super early in the morning with my thoughtha. That’s what I would call my grandfather, my thoughtha in the morning. And my grandmother, we’ll call her amama, big mom. She would take me with this little. They called it a tiffan, like, food packet thing, and would go in the jeep, and my grandfather would take me to these rural villages where he’d preach the gospel to the untouchables and these people that have no hope but found hope in the gospel. So the very earliest memories are of that. So definitely those two. And then the other one is very well known, and her name is Lisa Turkerst.
Joel Muddamalle:
Lisa is she saw something in me which I never even saw for myself. In a lot of ways. My wife saw it, some other people. But Lisa really championed this idea of the reality of theological development and pursuing that in a way that is formative. And so she’s a better person off stage than she is, even on stage. And she is a champion of women. And I know you all have very personal friendships and relationships with her, but she has impacted my faith. I have learned so much sitting underneath the teaching of her and the both of you, and it has really opened up a new way of seeing and experiencing the beauty of scripture.
Johnny Whitcomb:
Wow. I love it. Thank you, guys. Do you feel like you know them a little bit better now?
Johnny Whitcomb:
Yeah, that’s what we’re here for. That’s what this panel is about, following kind of the same train of thought. What are you reading right now and why? What are you reading? Are you reading any books?
Lisa Whittle:
Yeah, right now, two things that the Lord has really been working on me with, and I’ve been really diving into revival and the body and the physical body, actually, but also the body of Christ, but physical body I’ve been doing a lot of research about. So one of the books, and I had to pull it up from my Amazon cart because I knew I would butcher the author’s name. But this is the book that I’ve just gotten, and I’ve just started, so don’t ask me too much about the book yet. I don’t know, and I’ll let you know if I like it or not. But it’s called This is My Body, a Call to Eucharist Revival. So that kind of combines both of my things that I’ve been working on. Bishop Robert Barron wrote that book. Have you read it?
Johnny Whitcomb:
Word on fire. I know his ministry.
Lisa Whittle:
Okay. Okay. So I’m reading that, and it’s been interesting. I’ve ordered multiple books on the body, and so I’m really learning a lot of extraordinarily interesting things about the body and about from the incarnation to our redeemed bodies. And so Lord’s got me planted there.
Phylicia Masonheimer:
Well, I am not half as theological as you with what I’m reading.
Lisa Whittle:
Oh, What? I’m glad you recognize that. Phy. It’s about time. I mean, my word. Goodness.
Phylicia Masonheimer:
So I could literally talk about reading all day long. I love it. I love hearing people’s reading lives, and I love hearing what they like to read. But I kind of have to separate my pleasure reading and my research reading because I enjoy reading theology stuff, but if I read it for fun, I don’t know, it just like, you have to be thinking, right? So I actually am reading right now a book called the Tenet of Wildfell Hall. I know it sounds kind of snooty, but it was a gift, so I didn’t pick it out myself. It’s a Bronte book, and it’s actually really fascinating because it has a lot of these themes of written in the 1800’s, themes of navigating, actually, like, living with an abusive partner and how women navigated marriage back then. It’s fiction, but it’s very, very fascinating, and it’s beautifully written. And that’s one thing I look for in books that I read.
Phylicia Masonheimer:
I was telling Joel this, that when I’m looking at what to read, even in fiction, I look for what is good and true and beautiful. So sometimes you’re reading a theme that is not beautiful, but the resolution is beautiful or the writing is beautiful and that shapes your taste and your worldview. And so I really like the classics for that reason. And also, it’s comforting to me because you find out that nothing is new under the sun.
Lisa Whittle:
Yeah.
Phylicia Masonheimer:
The same issues that people were dealing with in the 1700’s and 1820, when this book was written, we’re still seeing today. And it’s about this woman’s journey to leaving that man and finding freedom for her son and for her. And so it’s really neat to see, like, she follows God, too. And so it’s just really neat to see her faith in light of that, written almost, well, 200 years ago.
Johnny Whitcomb:
And that’s a fun one.
Phylicia Masonheimer:
That’s a fun one.
Johnny Whitcomb:
All right. I like it. And you’re still drawing so much out of it. Come on. All right, cool. What do you got?
Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah, I’m similar to you, Phy, so it’s very difficult for me to separate what I’m doing for study and research and personal pleasurable, because I just can’t stop my mind from thinking theologically, even with the pleasurable and fun kind of stuff that I do. But I just got done reading The Odyssey, kind of a new translation from the Greek text, which is super fun. It’s light reading, but it’s in English. It’s very, very good. And I actually never really read any Marilyn Robinson, which is like, all my friends are like, you are so out of touch. So I’m half with you, Gilead, right now, which is just so good. And then kind of in middle of theology and not, by the way, I have severe add adhd. So this is why I’ve got all these different books.
Joel Muddamalle:
They’re literally in different parts of my house. So when I sit down, I can read a little bit, and the other one is. And I’m blanking on the name. Something middle earth. But it’s by Fleming Rutledge. She wrote an incredible book on advent, but this is. She goes through all the biblical thematic themes of Tolkien’s middle earth as, I know.
Joel Muddamalle:
Look, do you see the ah’s? Y’all are my people, but not as a scholar, like as an everyday, average kind of person. And so she’s just taught. It’s just so helpful for me on a theological standpoint. I’m doing a deep dive for a future study on exile and wilderness theme. So nt writes a book on exile, which has been super helpful, and then a book called Possessed by God, which is a biblical theology of sanctification.
Johnny Whitcomb:
Yeah. Good job. You guys are awesome. Okay. And I’m going to try to come back and get those books later from you guys. All right, cool. All right, last fun one. And this one might not be fun.
Johnny Whitcomb:
You might come to blows on this question. What’s an unpopular opinion? Or hot take that you have? Phy go first. Phy go first.
Phylicia Masonheimer:
Okay. Don’t kill me. Taylor Swift.
Joel Muddamalle:
Say it. Bye. Shout it from the mountaintops.
Phylicia Masonheimer:
Taylor Swift is being paid to date Travis Kelsey.
Joel Muddamalle:
That’s a prophetic word.
Johnny Whitcomb:
Who’s Taylor Swift?
Joel Muddamalle:
Exactly.
Phylicia Masonheimer:
Okay, your turn, Lisa.
Lisa Whittle:
Should we ask you if you like Taylor Swift?
Phylicia Masonheimer:
I don’t think. I plead the fifth.
Lisa Whittle:
Okay, see, that’s the thing. How honest are we going to be? Because I’ve got a lot of unpopular opinions and I feel like I should not say most of them. Okay, I’m going to give you two. I don’t like magic tricks.
Phylicia Masonheimer:
I’m so glad I cut the magic.
Johnny Whitcomb:
We didn’t ask about irrational fears.
Lisa Whittle:
I literally texted my kids in our family group, and I was like, okay, they want my unpopular opinions. Go. Because my kids are forever saying, mom, you have the weirdest dislikes ever. But there’s a lot of don’t. I don’t like magic tricks. I also don’t like period pieces. Like, I’m not the one to watch Downton Abbey. I’m sorry. I don’t really like, I don’t.
Lisa Whittle:
I’m not cultured. Someone booed me.
Johnny Whitcomb:
It was over here.
Joel Muddamalle:
Over here somewhere.
Lisa Whittle:
They hate me. I’m so glad that my session is over, because no one would come. They’re like, who is this uncultured woman? Oh, my word.
Johnny Whitcomb:
So what do you do? Like, what do you like to watch?
Lisa Whittle:
Oh, gosh.
Johnny Whitcomb:
Magic shows.
Phylicia Masonheimer:
Not magic shows.
Lisa Whittle:
And not period.
Johnny Whitcomb:
All right, fair enough. Leaves a lot on the table. All right.
Joel Muddamalle:
Oh, gosh. I don’t know. I’m kind of the same way. Okay, here’s one.
Phylicia Masonheimer:
Wait, Joel.
Phylicia Masonheimer:
Joel does unpopular opinions on his instagram every week.
Joel Muddamalle:
That’s true.
Phylicia Masonheimer:
He’s the expert on this.
Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah, there’s so many. And you guys have already nailed them all. So a couple. A couple that are just important to me. One is I don’t like french fries. I don’t like potato chips. Brent and I were just talking about this. I don’t like Lay’s potato chips.
Joel Muddamalle:
I don’t like plain. I don’t like potatoes. I don’t like mashed potatoes. It’s thing I just don’t. I know. Look, Phy is so shocked. I would have been uninvited from this conference.
Phylicia Masonheimer:
Well, this is the midwest. Like, all we do is eat potatoes.
Johnny Whitcomb:
I’ve had potato parties before at my house.
Phylicia Masonheimer:
Johnny has had a potato party at his house.
Joel Muddamalle:
I’ll hit you the invite for that one.
Johnny Whitcomb:
It was not good.
Joel Muddamalle:
That’s one. The other one. It’s a heavy debated thing in my household. Batman is not a superhero. Just so everybody is clear, he does not count as a superhero. I got a couple of claps. Y’all know?
Johnny Whitcomb:
Heard a dude. Yeah. The dude’s fist pumping up.
Joel Muddamalle:
That’s right. What’s up? Yeah, I think those are. No, that’s not unpopular opinion.
Phylicia Masonheimer:
No, but say,
Johnny Whitcomb:
It’s just.
Joel Muddamalle:
I feel.
Joel Muddamalle:
Like that’s the best way to. All narrative at some level is biblical narrative, like, all good narrative at some level. Even the bad narrative is at some level.
Johnny Whitcomb:
because there’s redemption intention.
Joel Muddamalle:
And even if there is no redemption, it’s antithetical to the storyline of scripture.
Johnny Whitcomb:
Come on.
Joel Muddamalle:
So it’s actually supposed to be like, whoa, this is whack. We shouldn’t listen to this.
Phylicia Masonheimer:
Love it.
Johnny Whitcomb:
Love it. I thought you had something to say there.
Lisa Whittle:
No. Am I going to disagree with that?
Lisa Whittle:
No, I’m not an idiot.
Johnny Whitcomb:
All right, so I’ve kind of taken some questions that I feel like we can distill down the heart of the question, and we can kind of answer a lot of questions by answering one. So let me get to this one. Philippi. This is a question that people have asked when it comes to hospitality and boundaries. In hospitality, what does that look like to have boundaries and hospitality? This is one. Philippians 2, 1 through 11. How does having this mindset.
Johnny Whitcomb:
Having this mindset. That’s the same work. While having boundaries, or are they not compatible at all? Like, can we have boundaries. If we take Paul’s command as a real command, what does it look like to have boundaries.
Phylicia Masonheimer:
When it comes to Hospitality and boundaries, I do want to be clear that those two things are not like two ends of a spectrum. When you are having people over, you do get to still have home rules. Well, one person I know put it this way, you can’t have a safe space without boundaries. So you can’t invite people in and have it be a safe space without boundaries. You also can’t have a safe space if you allow unsafe people into that space where they could hurt other people. We actually had this exact situation happen in the past in our home, where we didn’t feel equipped to deal with it. We didn’t really know how to handle having someone who was unsafe in our home when we were trying to provide a safe space. And it was difficult to navigate because we weren’t good at boundaries at that time.
Phylicia Masonheimer:
We kind of had the idea that love has no boundaries. Everybody’s welcome, but then it put other people at risk. So you definitely can have a boundary. I would say, and maybe this is a little of a stretch, because Jesus is generally ministering in a public setting or space. But I think even if you watch Jesus’ interaction with the Pharisees, it’s almost like he would stand between the pharisee and the adulteress, or he would stand between this person who is putting, in this case, a spiritual oppression, but any kind of unsafe behavior. He would stand between them, between the little ones, between the lambs, and the one who is coming to put a burden on them or to hurt them. And so that’s how I see hospitality and boundaries melding. My door is open to you, but there is a standard here.
Phylicia Masonheimer:
If you are going to hurt the little ones who are here, and I count all young believers, new believers, children, as the little ones, then I am the guardian of these people. So the unsafe person can be met out for coffee. You can meet with them in a park, meet with them one on one. They don’t have to be left alone and undiscipled, but they’re not permitted into a space where they could compromise other people. Would you have more to add to that, Lisa?
Lisa Whittle:
Yeah, I mean, I think boundaries are a tough issue for all of us, right? Because we don’t know sometimes where the line is. I think one thing to always just kind of on a practical note to keep in mind, is this a people pleasing issue as well? Because that is often at play in the boundary situation, whatever the situation is, with boundaries I have something that is a visual that kind of helps me with the boundary issue, because one of the things that we struggle with is the spiritual aspect of this, right? Like, aren’t we supposed to love all people? And the answer is yes. And the beautiful thing about our hearts and the way that love is that we have room in our hearts to love all people. It’s just that we don’t have the limited capacity there. So I say there’s room in your heart for everyone, but there’s not room in the car. And so this is a visual that you can imagine. Your car has limited capacity to take passengers. I don’t care if you have a two seater or a seven seater, right? There’s limited capacity in there and that’s like the travelers in your life, right? We know that Jesus had the certain core and the people that he traveled with, and so you have to know that directionally opposed people for where you want to go.
Lisa Whittle:
And certainly folks that aren’t going to travel well with you in that capacity and the encouragement place, and folks that have different belief systems in that sense that are going to travel closely with you, that’s a boundary that you need to set in a different way. In the sense though, of loving people. Your heart has the ability to love all folks. And so I think sometimes that’s an important kind of thing to keep in mind. Room in your heart for everyone, but not room in the car. And so that’s a quick little illustration that you can think about when you think about, hey, I might need to set a boundary here with some people, but I’m also going to love all people because we can get those confused sometimes.
Joel Muddamalle:
So good. Just add love that is ordered will create peace. Love that is disordered will create chaos. So what is the order that it brings into just a quick passage, Romans 12:18, that really ties it in. Paul says, if possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. He starts with a conditional clause, so if possible. Paul’s already assuming, like sometimes it’s not possible, right? As far as it depends on you, where’s the ownership on us as much as we’re some of you like, that is not fair. But imagine if Paul said, if possible, as far as it depends on them, well, that steals your agency.
Joel Muddamalle:
Now you’re held to whatever, so that’s actually a blessing. And then the imperative we can’t get around is peace. Pursue peace with all people. So what does that mean? Sometimes peace is not possible in the midst of your presence. So you’ve got to create the boundaries or somebody else’s presence in order to fulfill the imperative of that text.
Lisa Whittle:
That’s good.
Johnny Whitcomb:
Love it. Let’s hear it for that. Can I just follow up on that? Let’s say you have somebody who, you’ve invited them in. There’s an established relationship, but it feels like maybe they’re taking advantage of that relationship. Like, you have dinner with some friends and they come, like, 4 hours early to vent and talk, and you’re like, I got to get the pot roast in the oven, dude. Come on. How do you begin that conversation to say, like, hey, I love you, but we’ve got to establish some boundaries. Is it just that sentence, or what would you say?
Lisa Whittle:
I think we’re afraid of having conversations with people because we’re afraid of losing people. We’re afraid of. It’s our own people pleasing issues. We would do so much better in our relationships if we would have the conversation. And so I do think we need to look at it as loving the relationship enough to have that conversation. Anybody can sit and stew. Anybody can sit and be mad about it silently. That’s a self protectant sort of thing.
Lisa Whittle:
But when we are really following the commands of scripture and also believing that it’s true, we will have that conversation with folks. And I think it is reasonable to ask someone not to show up 4 hours early. I mean, that’s taking time away from the family. It’s taking time away from the preparation. And I think I would simply sit down and say, hey, I want to be my best for you. I want to present something to you that’s going to be welcoming. And I also want to be of right Spirit. And I just know myself, and I know that if you show up 4 hours early, I’m not going to be able to give you my best.
Lisa Whittle:
So, I mean, I take the direct approach, I’ll be honest with you. So that’s kind of how it’s at. And not everybody is as direct as I am, but I think love will allow us to have those conversations. What do you think?
Phylicia Masonheimer:
Yeah, I think so. I think being direct and kind, I think people often think, well, to be direct, I have to be mean.
Lisa Whittle:
Yes, good point.
Phylicia Masonheimer:
Or to be kind, I have to like him and ha and beat her on the bush. I mean, that’s just the midwestern Way, the way we get people to leave.
Phylicia Masonheimer:
We go, well.
Phylicia Masonheimer:
And you do that like, five times, and then you stand by the door and you just keep, like, hinting and hinting and hinting. And then, like, I’ll see at church on Sunday.
Johnny Whitcomb:
I’m going to bed. You can stay in my living room as long as you want.
Phylicia Masonheimer:
Yeah, exactly. We have done that. We have been so honest with people that we’ve been like, well, it seems like you’re really comfortable here. We’re going to bed. You can keep talking. Lock the door on your way out. I think in really close relationships, you could do things like that, but just being direct, like, we have to get up early in the morning. I hate to kick you out, but I’m kicking you out.
Phylicia Masonheimer:
I have to go. And sometimes, to me, it’s a compliment that they feel so comfortable and so safe that they want to stay, but you still get to say. And I think being direct is the best thing.
Lisa Whittle:
Yeah. And it’s also a misunderstanding, too, what loving people really is. It’s misunderstanding. We’re thinking, oh, well, if I was really a good person, right, I would let them come 4 hours early. Is it really about that? I think not. And I think sometimes then we also do need to. Need to be a little bit more gracious. I said it to myself because sometimes I can be real stringent about times like, no, do not come early. Right.
Lisa Whittle:
So I think it is a both and. But I think there’s nothing wrong with saying, this is the time. Please come, and please don’t be early.
Johnny Whitcomb:
Yeah, I like it. Thank you. Helping me. Yeah, I run a middle school program, and so sometimes kids will get there an hour early. I’m like, I’m barely here. You got to go. Anything to add?
Joel Muddamalle:
No. I’m from a position of weakness, so I’m taking notes.
Johnny Whitcomb:
I like it. Okay. Question about leaders. Okay, you have leaders. They seem to have really good hearts. They want to serve, but it seems like maybe they’re less educated in theology and doctrine or seem to be wrongly educated in doctrine and theology. How do you go about with a pastor? Talking through that, I would like to hear Joel.
Joel Muddamalle:
Oh, gosh. So this is the humility message, right? This is where humility is so important. And so the first question that I would have is, what is the heart ambition in this conversation and in this discussion? Is your heart for clear biblical truth? Is your heart to encourage your pastor or this leader in their growth? So I think there’s some heart, rationale, and conversation that needs to take place before you even take the next step. Beyond that, and then after that, I think that if there are specific places that you’re like, man, I just don’t get this. I’d love to get some more information. I think the way that you present the question is so vitally important. So I learned this a while back of presenting a question like, help me understand. Just help me think through this, because what that does is it positions you in a place of reception so you can first hear and understand, right.
Joel Muddamalle:
And you might find out, like, oh, it’s actually not that the person is less educated than I thought or that they have wrong theology or wrong doctrine. They were informed and taught in a different place. They have a different perspective. So I have this phrase that I’ve been toying around with, and it’s called theological dishonesty. Theological dishonesty. And what I want us to be really careful of is that we’re not theologically dishonest with people. And what that means is we view our position, our doctrine. Now, I’m talking primary, right? I’m sorry, I’m talking like, secondary, tertiary, the primary things we die on a hill for, but the secondary and tertiary things, we don’t view that as the only way.
Joel Muddamalle:
And if you don’t agree with me on this, then we’re done. And so I think it’s really important to navigate those things. And then I think it’s Dane Orland wrote an incredible book on theological triage. If the situation is like, well, no, this is actually clear lack of validity of scripture, of clear doctrine. These are real serious primary doctrine issues. Then I think honest conversations are really important. They help me understand this is what the text says, help me to navigate it.
And then that Romans 12:18 verse just comes back here of, you might need to remove yourself from that situation as you hold fast to doctrine.
Johnny Whitcomb:
Good answer. Good answer.
Joel Muddamalle:
Fine.
Phylicia Masonheimer:
I do think that with this kind of a situation, as you’re growing in theological understanding, it can be really tempting to become critical. And instead of being a critical thinker, adopt a critical spirit. There’s a difference between those two things. And I was tempted to this. I went to Bible college and I came out of Bible college and I was like, this sermon is below me. You’re listening and you’re like, this is. But you’re thinking about you. Who else in the auditorium might need it? There’s also, pastors have different callings and different spiritual giftings and different congregations.
Phylicia Masonheimer:
If their congregation is mostly new believers. Yeah, it’s probably going to be like cookies on the bottom shelf kind of thing. So you can partner with him and helping them grow. You can take a discipleship role if you’re called to stay in that church. Or maybe you do go to a church that is a little bit more robust, but I promise you that there are weaknesses there, too. So the critical spirit will hamper a true coming alongside of that fellowship. There’s always going to be places with more shallow teaching that could be deeper, more theological. Maybe that’s why you’re there.
Phylicia Masonheimer:
Maybe you’re to help fill that role. But again, like you said, talk to the pastor about it and not in coming at it from like a, you need to change this. But more like, can I understand your method or your priority or who you’re serving? I think some people have criticisms of what we do at Every Woman a Theologian. Who are we serving? We serve a lot of people coming out of legalism, so we talk about things that another ministry wouldn’t talk about. And so just I think giving that it’s grace is really what it is. But what would you say, Lisa?
Lisa Whittle:
Well, first of all, you’re such a good teacher, and I appreciate that approach. Honestly, it’s really a good teacher. I think I always come from just the concern for leaders in their integrity, in their integrous lives. So I think what I hear, too, is it’s just a concern for upholding the word of God and that the leadership and your pastor and whoever’s teaching you is staying true to the word of God. And so to that, I would say yes and make sure that there is a real commitment to fidelity to the word of God. And that’s not something that I think it’s a both/and. And I love what you said about not going from critical thinker to having a critical spirit. So I think we check ourselves with the Holy Spirit with that and make sure we’re not diving into that space.
Lisa Whittle:
And also hold fast to saying, I have a commitment to wanting to hear from someone who has biblical fidelity from the pulpit and in the integrity of the way in which they lead as a leader. And you should want that. Make sure that they are someone that is upholding that and so pray for your leader and that first and foremost. I mean, if you are criticizing, if you are judging even internally and you have not spent some real good time in prayer for that leader, then I would suggest that you reverse engineer the process and you go back and you pray for that leader first, because I can tell you leadership is really, really hard. Spiritual leadership is really, really hard. And a lot of the leaders, even that you might think, oh, man, they’re off the beaten path. Most of them really do want to love and serve Jesus. They really, really do.
Lisa Whittle:
There’s often go wrong somewhere in that process, and the temptations are tough and they are very, very real. So that might be a little bit of a side road, but I just come from this, from a space where my father was a pastor in a very public ministry fall. And so I come from this from a place that I have lived in that space where I’ve watched a leader wrestle from the trenches. So I have a little bit of a tender heart for this and for our leadership. So that’s where I come from.
Johnny Whitcomb:
Amen.
Lisa Whittle:
Yeah.
Johnny Whitcomb:
Amen. The church that I help lead, we have a collaboration when it comes to teaching, where everybody gets to in leadership, they get to weigh in on the messages and we give them to each other and we critique them and we try to build up the messages. And we have a guy who just recently came on staff about a year ago. He came from a small church down in Alabama where he was the lead pastor alone. And he goes, you don’t know how scary that is to do it. Two messages a week, every week, and you’re the only one doing them and you’re not getting any feedback from anybody. It’s like flying without instruments. And so to have, I think a lot of leaders would welcome genuine, loving, compassionate help in leadership and so good, reach out to them.
Johnny Whitcomb:
And to that end, I just want to say, I got to pause. How long do we have for this? I forgot to ask.
Phylicia Masonheimer:
Is it 2:30?
Johnny Whitcomb:
We got 25 minutes. Okay. Prayer. Can I just celebrate really quick? There is a praise in our questions and I want to read it for you. Phy?
Phylicia Masonheimer:
Yeah.
Johnny Whitcomb:
This is from last year. Because I think all these questions, they have nuance, they have specific situations and stuff. And I think as wise as the panel is, prayer, going to God with your questions is a great thing to do. It says, I don’t have a question today, but I have a praise report from last year’s Q and A.
Johnny Whitcomb:
Last year I asked for advice on making and keeping friends. I was new to my small town and deeply lonely meeting people, but struggling to move acquaintances to friendships. You spoke so poignantly about even speaking to that issue of clicks and circles in a church. I met new friends from my own town and beyond that, at Verity, and we stayed connected. What she said is, after she left, she started praying. And three days after the conference, three women in my community who had been praying for God to help them make friends just like I had been praying, approached me and we bonded immediately.
Phylicia Masonheimer:
Wow.
Johnny Whitcomb:
And they are now my closest, dearest friends. Our children and husbands love each other too. That would have been plenty more than enough, but get this. I now help run a homeschool co-op. And through that, now count over 30 women as my friends and their children’s friends as my children’s friends. Only God can do that.
Joel Muddamalle:
So cool.
Lisa Whittle:
So good.
Johnny Whitcomb:
The power of that answer is pointing them to Christ.
Lisa Whittle:
Wow.
Johnny Whitcomb:
Okay. I love it. Okay, Lisa, this is a question for you.
Lisa Whittle:
Hot seat.
Johnny Whitcomb:
Hot seat. How can we comfort our believing friends without being, like, Job’s friends? Where to start with comforting?
Lisa Whittle:
Well, I think I even said that the community of silent grieving can be so holy, even in that statement. We go wrong so many times when we open our mouth, don’t we? I mean, honestly, though, one of the things that the Lord has really been convicted me of is listening better. I think we can talk so much, but there’s just such power in listening, even in prayer. I mean, honestly, you want to talk about prayer? One of the things that I’ve learned as I’ve gotten older in this very long relationship I’ve had with the Lord, praise God, is that my prayers have gotten a lot less verbal and they’ve gotten a lot more open hands in, just sitting in silence and listening for the Lord to speak to me. And I just want to say that I think one of the ways that we can really, really hold space for our friends in their grief is to be present. Just the power of presence. I mean, think about your own grief. What do you need from folks, right? This isn’t rocket science, guys.
Lisa Whittle:
It’s sitting and being with people and not saying, I got to hurry. Not looking at your phone, not looking at your watch, looking at them, being with them. The power of presence. We don’t sit and grieve with people nearly as much as we should. And also just being silenced, being silent and not feeling awkward in that space. Sometimes when I’m sitting with someone and it’s silent, I feel awkward, and I think I need to say something. No, we know the Holy Spirit just can really translate that for us in that moment, and we need to trust him to do that, because that will be so much more powerful. And I do think listening, even just listening and listening to the spirit in that moment and just what is needed here.
Lisa Whittle:
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve felt way out of range and I’ve thought, oh, man, I am way out of my pay grade here. This is way too hard and complex for me. People have the most complex grief. If you’re in ministry, I’m going to tell you something. You think you’ve heard it, and then you haven’t heard it because someone else has got something else. And the grief is overwhelming, and I don’t know what to do. But I can tell you that the Lord is so good to help us in those moments. And so certainly pointing people to the word of God will never steer you wrong.
Lisa Whittle:
When our words fail us or when we think we have the best words, these words will always be better. They’re also living, breathing, active, will never return void. Our words will fall flat to the ground, clang and clatter. But I can tell you these words will not. They will continue to live and breathe and have meaning and purpose. And so always when your words fall flat, point them here. The Psalms are always, of course, comforting.
Lisa Whittle:
Logos has a great way that you can filter, actually, in those moments that you need some comforting words. So I can tell you it’s a beautiful resource. If you ever want to check into Logos, you really should do it. It’s a resource that’s been wonderful for me in not only my research and study, but also personal study. So that’s something powerful and highly, highly recommend looking into that. Yeah.
Johnny Whitcomb:
Amen.
Joel Muddamalle:
I mean, take us a little bit of a step back from the question and just more of a theology and a question of suffering in general. And Lisa, I loved your teaching on Job. I think it’s so powerful. I have a chapter in my forthcoming book called when Bad Things Happen to Humble People. Really walking through this question. And what I think is so fascinating about the narrative of job is every time job asks why, God is determined to show him who consistently.
Johnny Whitcomb:
Right?
Joel Muddamalle:
And so I grew up in hip hop culture, so you all might know the phrase, the more money, the more problems, right? I’ve come to the conclusion, y’all, the more answers we have, the more questions we have. And so it’s actually God’s kindness. This is that omniscience message, that it’s actually God’s kindness, that he doesn’t just give us answers to the why, that just are actually going to oftentimes open up more questions for us. He’s more determined to make us intimately aware of the who. This is the whole conversation in Job, I think it’s 38, where it’s like God’s like, where were you? Where were you? Where were you? Now, the interesting thing about that passage is we could read it from our vantage point of being like man God’s kind of being rough, right? But the way the hebrew poetry is done, it’s the same type of language that’s used of a father that invites a child into a conversation. It’s a discussion. It’s actually.
Joel Muddamalle:
There’s a gentleness that’s actually built into this. And so, as friends, right, sometimes we feel the pressure of answering the why, and oftentimes, what I think this is, 2 Corinthians, chapter 5. The real power of it is the spirit of God who is inside of you that is actually tangibly present in the midst of your friend and loved one who’s suffering. But God is making his appeal in and through you, and so much more powerful than your words at times can just be the pure presence of being shoulder to shoulder, hugging, crying, suffering along with your friends and grieving through the process.
Johnny Whitcomb:
Wow. Good. All right, you guys, taking it too deep. It’s too good drinking from a fire hose here. All right, let’s break it down. We’ll do a little bit of a simpler question for you. We’ll start with you on this one. Okay.
Johnny Whitcomb:
I recently spoke to a unitarian universalist who claimed there is no.
Joel Muddamalle:
Hold on.
Johnny Whitcomb:
All right, here’s a question summarized. I’ll break it way down. Here’s a simple one.
Joel Muddamalle:
Here’s a simple one.
Johnny Whitcomb:
You’re smart. You could do it, I promise.
Joel Muddamalle:
I know Scott said, don’t Google, but.
Johnny Whitcomb:
I might have had to google that one.
Joel Muddamalle:
No, I’m going to use Factbook. My bad. My bad.
Johnny Whitcomb:
Logos.
Phylicia Masonheimer:
Yeah.
Joel Muddamalle:
Don’t Google, Joel.
Joel Muddamalle:
I know better.
Johnny Whitcomb:
Don’t look him up. Don’t Google. No, don’t google him. All right. How do you respond quickly to someone claiming the trinity is a false notion that we put in.
Joel Muddamalle:
Okay, I have a question, and I’m just going to say this way. I am not a huge fan of. Let me show you how much smarter I am than you are, so I can prove a point to you. That’s the first thing, right? Because if that’s the goal of the conversation, it’s not going to work well for either person at the end of it. So one, just be aware of that. And the second one, if I was forced into answering that question, I would just say, okay, help me again. Help me understand. How is it possible that in the Old Testament we have consistent anticipation for the messiah to come, who is the son of God? Like, that is exactly the language that’s used throughout Isaiah.
Joel Muddamalle:
I mean, all throughout the Old Testament. And then even more profound is in John, chapter 17. Help me understand Jesus’s language of I am the Father are one. How can you have oneness? Right. But then distinction of person. And then if you really want to go at it, then the question is like, and then help me understand the baptism passage, which to me is like the ace card, right? You have in one instance, the most profound moment. You have God the Son, God the Father, God the Spirit. So that’s where I’d go.
Johnny Whitcomb:
I like it. Anything you guys would add?
Phylicia Masonheimer:
I think the baptism passage is. That’s usually where I go with that discussion. Again, coming from that framework, not of like, I win, but more like coming from an attitude of, but have you thought about it this way?
Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah. So good.
Phylicia Masonheimer:
It’s more like, I might not convince you, but are you willing to hear my perspective on this? And then presenting it to them? And I love the baptism passage because it is. It says, the Father says, this is my Son, and the Holy Spirit descends as a dove upon Jesus. Then of course you can go further into the New Testament and where Paul and Peter mention all three, but a lot of times people don’t see those as authoritative if they’re asking this question. So you want to concentrate on Jesus’ words and then the Old Testament proves, as Joel said. At least that’s what’s been effective. When I’m talking to unitarians, atheists, new age individuals.
Joel Muddamalle:
The spirit of Christ. This is like the Holy Spirit idea. The Spirit of Christ throughout the entire New Testament is referred to as the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit haggias, the spirit of God. And so you have trinitarian reality even with the language of the Holy Spirit. So you just have these questions that you need to have a framework to put it in.
Johnny Whitcomb:
And salvation is inherently trinitarian. Right. It’s like you’re brought into union with the son by the power of the spirit and a loving relationship with the father. That’s a beautiful statement.
Joel Muddamalle:
Let’s go, Johnny.
Johnny Whitcomb:
Right? Let’s go. That’s a beautiful statement. That’s truth. And it’s beautiful truth that I don’t feel like I have salvation unless I got all three, and I love all three. And to show them this is a beautiful faith and not just I’m smarter than you, I think that’s important when you’re communicating with somebody who’s, here’s the other one.
Joel Muddamalle:
John, chapter 1. In the beginning was the word. The word was with God. The word was God. Through him all things were made. Without him, nothing was made that has been made. Cross reference John chapter 1 with Genesis, chapter one. In the beginning was the word.
Joel Muddamalle:
The spirit of God is hovering over the waters of creation. Tohova Voho. The land is a wasteland and wilderness. Right. It’s an echo of the Jesus narrative that’s taking place as well. So you have all these places where he’s trying to put these pieces together, and you’re like, okay, we’ve got to have some level of comprehension here for this. Otherwise we have to land in. This is random.
Joel Muddamalle:
I’m like, it can’t be like, nah.
Johnny Whitcomb:
It’s a beautiful puzzle. It’s a beautiful, beautiful puzle. I love it. Okay. And that’s. I think all theological concepts just communicate the beauty of them. Here’s a question. Can you please talk to a woman’s ambition? This is for the couch.
Joel Muddamalle:
This is for you guys.
Johnny Whitcomb:
You guys have been quiet too long. Woman’s ambition, quick backstory. I own a growing small business. Congratulations. I do during cracks in time as a stay at home mom. I love my business and am passionate about it. It also brings its own form of chaos in the hustle and takes away from some time to serve my family.
Johnny Whitcomb:
I’m not feeling at peace about all this, but I also can’t imagine laying down my business. So I am curious for y’all’s take and experience on this. Thank you.
Lisa Whittle:
Goodness. I could spend an hour on this. I’m a big fan of women using their gifts for the glory of God. So let me make that statement, period. I think that there’s a lot at play in a lot of these kinds of questions. And obviously, we don’t have all the information here, but words like ambition often comes into play. Calling comes into play here, and a lot of those types of things, I think sometimes we’ve had a background that also comes into play where we misunderstand exactly what God’s plan is for us in general, just to use our gifts for the glory of God. And so all of those things, I think, are things that have to be sorted through.
Lisa Whittle:
I will say that when it comes to running businesses or whatever you’re doing in your life, we know we do all things for the glory of God, and anything can become idolatry. I think that’s also important to say. I also want to say that as I was raising my children, there were two things that I was very aware of. One, it was that I did not want to miss this wonderful role that I was playing in my life of getting to be a mother and also a wife. And those are roles that I believe are a great privilege and honor. I also know that my primary call is to be a disciple maker in this world. And so there was that tension that I lived with. I think that children need to know that they’re so important.
Lisa Whittle:
They also need to know that they are not the most important thing in my life. The Lord is. And so that played into travel and answering the call in my life to speak and things like that. So it’s a hard tension. I want to say that, and you need a lot of wisdom from the Lord to know what to do. The fact that this is causing some chaos is a little bit of a red flag for me, so I would want to know a little bit more about that. Is that an internal chaos that you’re having? Is that an external chaos with your family that you’re having? What’s going on in your marriage? If you’re married? I don’t know if they said that, if they were married or not, but if your spouse kind of. What’s going on there? And because when we’re called to do something, there shouldn’t be chaos going on, but there will be tension, because when we do things in our life, there is often a tension in our call.
Lisa Whittle:
So I need you to understand that I think we have this misunderstanding that, oh, this is going to all be pain free. There’s never going to be any complication here. Certainly not. And there’s never going to be any struggle there. So I would have to ask some more questions to know exactly what’s going on here. But here’s what I’ll tell you. We are gifted to use our gifts for the glory of God, and I do not believe that we have to choose between things in the sense of, will I be able to use my gifts? I think it looks different in different seasons of life. And I think you do have to make choices based on sort of what your situation is in life.
Lisa Whittle:
And so you do have to sometimes make those choices that will be difficult at times. So that’s going to need some discernment from the Lord on that. Yeah.
Johnny Whitcomb:
Can I jump in? Can we take it one step further? And I’ll have you jump here. This is going to be the last question. Okay, everybody weigh in on it. If there is a church that’s egalitarian. So this is, again, women using their gifts, moving by the spirit, following the Lord’s leading in their life, yet is more traditional in leadership. Every leadership role is held by a man, except for the children’s ministry director. How does a woman go about expanding those roles without looking like a feminist?
Joel Muddamalle:
Do you want to define egalitarian really quick for everybody, just in case?
Phylicia Masonheimer:
So there’s obviously a range of understanding of these terms. Each of them is on a spectrum of perhaps more strict to more lenient. But there’s complementarian and egalitarian. These words are just words used to describe an understanding and interpretive method of scripture and how men and women operate in the church and in the family. So in an egalitarian framework, men and women are equal and interchangeable in role. So female pastors, female elders, male pastors, male elders. In a complementarian setting, you will have a spectrum. In a more probably what’s being described here, a more traditional setting, it would be an all male elder pastor board, and then in other settings, you might have women in roles that are similar to pastoral roles, or are pastoral roles, but they have a different title.
Phylicia Masonheimer:
So, like women ministries director, deaconess, things like that. But you would never see in a complementarian setting, a female senior pastor in.
Johnny Whitcomb:
Different roles in the home too, right?
Phylicia Masonheimer:
Yes. Often, yes.
Johnny Whitcomb:
Okay.
Phylicia Masonheimer:
Although I think nowadays the home is a little bit more fluid. Fluid in terms of that. You ready for me to.
Johnny Whitcomb:
I’m ready for you to respond.
Phylicia Masonheimer:
Okay. So I do have very strong opinions about this, and it comes from a bit of a bias, obviously, doing what I do. So I openly admit that I’ve been in almost a dozen denominations over the years. I have been in egalitarian denominations, and I have been in very complementarian denominations. My religion degree is from a very complementarian university. I was one of three women in most of my classes. So I understand this feeling of not having a place, necessarily.
Phylicia Masonheimer:
Also, this church in this setting, the church is holding to a theology that has not, as Joel said when we were talking about it, come through in their orthopraxy. So they’re not actually practicing the theology that they say they hold, which probably points to some other issues that need to be navigated. So the number one thing I would say is you need to communicate with the leadership, and Lisa can probably speak more to that if we have time. You need to communicate openly and kindly and respectfully with your leadership about your desire. But here’s where I have an issue. Now, I’m not picking on the person who sent this question in, but what I’m finding for women who are growing in theology is a desire to have a place in the church. But the desire to have a place in a church is not coming from God, necessarily. It’s coming from a desire for position, a desire for affirmation, a desire for attention, and a desire, sometimes for power.
Phylicia Masonheimer:
Now, here’s the thing. It can start as a good thing. I want to see people discipled in this church. I want to see people in the word. But when that develops out into, I should be the one in that position. And when you’ve talked to the leadership and maybe they’re like, well, we don’t know, or this church is structured differently, if that is becoming bitterness or resentment and even entitlement, we have a problem. And my heart is this. You might not have a position in many of the churches I’ve ever been in.
Phylicia Masonheimer:
There was no position for me. But that did not negate God’s call. You can teach out of your home. You can teach at a coffee shop. And my question for women who desire this position in a church building is, have you done the work outside the church building? Because if you’re not doing the work outside the church building, why do you want it inside the church? It has to start here. It has to be a lifestyle. If it’s a lifestyle, God has an anointing on you, and he will open the door. I’m not saying, oh, just be content and sit there and let them figure it out.
Phylicia Masonheimer:
No, communicate clearly and kindly. Maybe you need to find a different church. If it’s not a good fit, that could be a possibility, too. But God is doing good work in complementarian and egalitarian churches. But he needs women who are willing to do his work regardless of whether a pastor affirms their gifting. So don’t wait for the affirmation of people. If you are honoring God’s word, you are being kind. You’re walking in the fruit of the spirit, and you are ready to disciple.
Phylicia Masonheimer:
Have them in your house, go to coffee, teach a class. You can do it. I believe in you. Okay. Lisa, would you add anything?
Lisa Whittle:
I think that’s so good, I mean. I think fi has given some great counsel here. And really, I think the biggest thing that I think we would both say that we hope that you hear, is you can use your gifts anywhere and please use them and use them freely and use them lavishly and generously. And don’t feel like that because someone else has not validated you or given you opportunity. And I think that’s one of the biggest griefs for a lot of women. I’m just going to say, I hear from women all the time that say, oh, no one’s giving me an opportunity. I don’t feel the door open here. And to that, I would say, I hear you.
Lisa Whittle:
I’ve had that happen with me many, many times. Is that frustrating? Yes. And in some cases, is that wrong? Yes. But what I will tell you is that God has given you gifts and he intends for you to use them. And you are not stifled by someone else. You absolutely can use them. You can use them today. And we want you to do that.
Lisa Whittle:
Yeah.
Joel Muddamalle:
So good.
Johnny Whitcomb:
Anything you want to add? Yeah, clap for that. For real? For real.
Lisa Whittle:
Joel knows when to stop.
Johnny Whitcomb:
All right, that is it. That is our panel time. You guys, you’ve been so gracious to all come up here and communicate with us. Lisa, will you pray for us as we close?
Lisa Whittle:
Yes, Father, thank you so much. Thank you so much for this beautiful time together. Thank you for every person represented here. God, thank you for loving them, for seeing them, for being the God with us. We love you so, so much, and may our lives honor you in everything we say and do. And God, I pray that we would go out of here inspired to use our gifts for the glory of God. It’s in Jesus name I pray. Amen.
Johnny Whitcomb:
Amen. Amen. Amen.
Phylicia Masonheimer:
Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of Verity Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, would you take the time to leave us a review? It helps so many other women around the world find out about Verity and about Every Woman a Theologian as a mystery in a shop. We appreciate you and I hope you’ll be back next week as we continue to go deeper into God’s word and the heart of Jesus Christ.